Curse

Kaon · Dec 28, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Note: this only applies to automated tournaments.

There have been rumors that the team that gets #1 in the single eliminations gets grenth 3 times and the team that gets #2 gets dwayna 3 times. Being a pokerplayer myself, I was very sceptical. After losing 30 zaishen keys in bets and remembering what happened last year I started to doubt. When someone made a comment that you didn't have to go in observe to see what god a team was, but you could just check what color they were it hit me like a hammerblow. I was suprised I (and noone else for that matter) didn't think of this before.

There isn't a seperate dice roll for whether you are dwayna or grenth. It is purely decided whether you are the hometeam or the away team.
Blue = Home = Grenth
Red = Away = Dwayna
What color you are isn't always random. Thus: What god you are isn't always random.

Example: Laddersnowball play
If there would be a snowball ladder then it would work as follows: The highest ranked team gets on the map of the lowest rank team. Higher rank = Away = Dwayna. Lower rank = Home = Grenth. The team that gets the highest rank the first will forever be #1 because they will always play as dwayna.

Now all there is to do is to know how the game decided whether you're the hometeam or away team in an AT. I don't know how it works in the swiss round, it might very well be random. It definately isn't true that the highest ranked team is always grenth or dwayna. However the single eliminations work differently.

In the single eliminations the top 8 teams are bracketed. I do not know exactly how this bracketing works. It isn't always #1 vs #8, #2 vs #6 etc, but there is a system. For instance the #1 and #2 team will only face each other in the final, never before. The teams are bracketed in a certain way and all there is to do is work out the bracketing. Here is an epic paintjob by me to demonstrate the system:

So, if you work out the bracketing, you'll know exactly what god you'll play as. I don't know exactly what ranks go to which brackets. But my first assumption is this:

Left Bracket: #1, #3, #6, #8
Right Bracket: #2, #7, #4 #5

Of course this will have to be tested.

note: Monthlies seem to work the same way only bigger. I know the team that gets #1 on swiss will be blue/home throughout the entire single eliminations. This is nice to know if you're playing on warriors isle or druids isle.

Shayne Hawke · Dec 28, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Enlightenment for the masses. The good teams already knew about this for a while this year, it seems.

Too bad that the determining factor in Tournament victories is becoming less of who gets Dwayna or Grenth and more of which team has more players using pick-up macros with fast connections.

kedde · Dec 28, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Pick-up bots are so not necessary unless you suck at the game.

Fate Crusher · Dec 28, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Pick-up bots are so not necessary unless you suck at the game.

Clearly you haven't been observing...

kedde · Dec 28, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Clearly, I've been playing instead of observing, and have played both with and against people with pick up bots.
They're not necessary, thought they can obviously make a small difference since they don't screw up and are consistent.

They don't decide matches in any way though.

Kaon · Dec 28, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

As kedde says pick up bots aren't as bad as they sound. If you're good at the game you'll get the present a lot of the time manually, even against a pick up bot. If you have dwayna, you're not ever going to lose though, unless you suck. Grenth has to fight for every single centimeter on the map, while dwayna can carry it full agro ranges without being harassed.

Div · Dec 28, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

As kedde says pick up bots aren't as bad as they sound. If you're good at the game you'll get the present a lot of the time manually, even against a pick up bot. If you have dwayna, you're not ever going to lose though, unless you suck. Grenth has to fight for every single centimeter on the map, while dwayna can carry it full agro ranges without being harassed.

For once I agree with Kaon. Even though your cracked code isn't quite complete yet ^_^

Shayne Hawke · Dec 28, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Contributing. Oh, boredom. I have it all figured out.

The important thing to note is that your position here is determined by what you get in the Swiss. When you look at it for the first time in the finals, the guilds will be organized by their rank. This has nothing to do with what side you get. Look at the Swiss and the tiebreakers there to find where you placed.

Also, further research could be done to see if there are predictable yields in the Swiss depending on your starting position, but I imagine this would take a great deal more effort, in part because you'd have to do it for every group of two teams to sixty-four teams.

Champen · Dec 28, 2009, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Yesterday i got second with LR in the swiss (we all left the match vs ban in swiss when both guilds had 5-0 score to avoid getting 6-0)
And we had 3 times dwayna in elims.

Kaon · Dec 29, 2009, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Yes champen that is the tournament that made me doubt whether the tournament was random. I realised it wasn't random when someon told me it's your color that decides the god.

Also shayna your depiction of the SE is wrong. Don't ask me how or why, but I know for sure it doesn't always work that way. All I know is that the rank1 will never face the rank2 before the final.

Div · Dec 29, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Yes champen that is the tournament that made me doubt whether the tournament was random. I realised it wasn't random when someon told me it's your color that decides the god.

Also shayna your depiction of the SE is wrong. Don't ask me how or why, but I know for sure it doesn't always work that way. All I know is that the rank1 will never face the rank2 before the final.

Shayne's SE brackets are completely correct. I've had it since early in the sAT system back in 2008, and it's been exactly the same ever since. In the system, rank 1 doesn't face rank 2. You might've been looking at something wrong?

Ariena Najea · Dec 29, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Interesting!

I wonder if artificially manipulating your color would result in punitive measures for rigging a tournament? They sure took rawr's incident earlier in the year seriously enough...

Div · Dec 29, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Interesting!

I wonder if artificially manipulating your color would result in punitive measures for rigging a tournament? They sure took rawr's incident earlier in the year seriously enough...

Ohnoez LR's going to get their trims taken away :/

The only reason why they took rawr's incident so seriously because
a) there was a HUGE amount of complaints everywhere
b) it involved the two highest profile American guilds at the time, rawr and zero
c) it was in a mAT, which is "supposedly" the highest form of PvP
d) everyone has strong feelings for/against rawr

There's been ladder manipulation going on for ages, and is still going on, but people don't see it since all the manipulators use rank 101-150 guilds. No complaints + low profile guilds = no one cares = Anet doesn't care.

Same thing back in TA and HB.

Shayne Hawke · Dec 29, 2009, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Since there seems to be a patter of odd numbers descending to the right and even numbers descending to the left, if I can just figure out where the byes fit in to each bracket, I could easily figure out what kind of side a given team is going to play for in the Swiss, assuming it works on the same kind of system.

deluxe · Dec 29, 2009, 05:24 AM // 05:24

I'm not sure about this, but i was listening on vent.
LR got placed 1 on swiss "accidentally", and got 3x grenth after that.
That true? Because we also get grenth every time when ending 1.

dr love · Dec 29, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

so from what i gather here, it pays to not be first in the swiss. however you can't guarantee yourself the best spot (2) or even (4), (5) or (7).

usually the top 2 teams are tied 6-0, then there's a few 5-1 and the top 4-2 make it into top 8.

so losing 1 match you may still end up on the left side (3 or 6) giving you dwayna against (1) but grenth in the finals. if you get (4 or 5) you end up grenth against (2) but dwayna in the finals.

losing 2 matches risks not making SE. so i don't know if its worth it

Shayne Hawke · Dec 30, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr love

usually the top 2 teams are tied 6-0, then there's a few 5-1 and the top 4-2 make it into top 8.

so losing 1 match you may still end up on the left side (3 or 6) giving you dwayna against (1) but grenth in the finals. if you get (4 or 5) you end up grenth against (2) but dwayna in the finals.

Actually, since there's only six rounds, only one team can make it 6-0.

The order you want to shoot for positions would go from right to left across the bracket: 2, 7, 4, 5, 6, 3, 8, 1. The rationale I use there is to get as many Dwayna triggers as possible in the later rounds when you will probably be facing more difficult teams. You can try and shoot for slightly different positions if you believe you know who is going to end up where, but you'd have to be an absolute number genius and have stupidly good luck or knowledge of the teams to pull something like that off, and even then, getting positions other than 1, 2, or 3 reliably seems pretty tough to me.

kedde · Dec 30, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

The proven best method for swiss is to win 5 matches and quit the last one since it'll pretty much ensure a second place unless for some reason the team you faced was at 4 wins while you were at 5.

Champen · Dec 31, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

The proven best method for swiss is to win 5 matches and quit the last one since it'll pretty much ensure a second place unless for some reason the team you faced was at 4 wins while you were at 5.

Except every good team knows this, so both teams leave and u end up gettign a draw and can end up #1 anyway.

Or you have to go 4-1-1 which is also possible but will not get you second =)

Shayne Hawke · Dec 31, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

The proven best method for swiss is to win 5 matches and quit the last one since it'll pretty much ensure a second place unless for some reason the team you faced was at 4 wins while you were at 5.

Also not quite right. It's usually whatever match in which there will be the only two teams left that haven't lost.

If both teams do this and you draw... Well, I don't have a whole lot of experience with those situations to explain what you might have to look for after that.